Reading this has been so helpful. I'm only getting 1L of milk a day from my goats currently, I keep having failures - not sure if its yeast or coliform, it shows up closer to the 24hr mark - full of holes, floating/bloated in the pot. Not sure if maybe the milk needs to be fresh like you mentioned. Just not sure I can make it with only one litre - I use walcoe rennet tablets 1/16th of a tablet for 4L milk makes it hard to get an even smaller dose. I've also been harvesting my kefir at the wrong stage, wow so much learning - going to try it with the salt as well. I'm on the westcoast of BC and it's hot right now here, so maybe i need to change the climate of where it's fermenting. Thank you for the interesting reading and learning.
Yes I get it in the fridge right away. This morning I tried something else, after reading your blog an idea came into my mind - I mixed up the rennet 1/16th of a tablet into 1/4c of water (4tbsps are in 1/4c) I then took my 1L of warm milk added 1tbsp kefir, 7grams of salt and 1tbsp of rennet (put the rest in the fridge to use tomorrow again.) So tomorrow morning I will tell if this works - perhaps I will just make small amounts of cheese? Thank you for your writing as it sparked new ideas in my mind.
I would recommend only holding the milk 24 hours, maybe 48. You can also try culturing the milk before refrigerating it, (for lactics) it will begin souring slowly, but at least you can get you desired microbes in there up front.
So I could add the tablespoon of kefir when I bring the milk in, then perhaps hold it til the next day and then warm it up and add it to the next mornings milk? So many things to learn and explore with. When I kept having issues with using the 4 days or milk - I thought I wasn't "sanitizing" enough - you know how hair can fall in before being strained etc. I'm realizing "sanitizing" is not so necessary when I see how milk has been turned into cheese for eons. They didn't have hydrogen peroxide to spray on everything.
My small cheese is looking very good from yesterday - curd is a bit soft, perhaps I will play with the rennet amount to add. I forgot to wait between culturing, salting and adding the rennet. I don't have a ph meter either. It's just fun to get to play with this all, and really great to not have lifted the lid and seen a bloated cheese curd!
I really hope you write a book - I want to learn more from you! I'm just a bit too far to make it to one of your workshops.
Yeah, add that tablespoon of kefir that I was harvested when It’s peak activity, which means slightly thick, but not fermented to total sourness and separation. The thing that allows many cheese to be fermented in what appears to be highly unsanitary conditions is working with milk straight from the animal.
I love your final thoughts on this. Americans are so accustomed to eating commercialized foods that always taste the same and can be purchased anywhere across this enormous continent. Reclaiming culture, human and cheese, by making food that is specific to PLACE is the correct course of action. Forced nature becomes denatured. We will reclaim health, sovereignty, and food that is delicious and precious as we grow and make from PLACE. I absolutely adore this message of yours, and it echoes also the message of Tara's of slowdownfarmstead fame. Keep up the amazing work! I enjoy all you do!
Sounds like a visit to the Abbey of Regina Laudis (Bethlehem, Connecticut) & chat with microbiologist Sr Noella Marcellino is in order. Or at the very least check out the “Earth” episode of the Netflix documentary series "Cooked". Not sure how familiar you are with her & her wooden tina? Put very simply, using it & the lactic acid bacteria contained within it far outweighs using stainless steel vats to control E.coli pathogens in raw milk!
I’m all about the cheese nun, dying to meet her someday. The Tinas used in Ragusano are so cool, definitely one of the better examples of the use of wood being protected. They have a whole kit of wood implements and storage vessels!
Thanks for that great post Trevor. Does anyone condition their wood fermentation vessels by rubbing them down with salt? I wonder if that would help select for a rind culture you’d prefer or help to inhibit the overzealous yeast. I like your idea of storing the vessel in the cooler aging environment as well. Can’t wait to see what your experiments being you.
I have not heard of using salt in that way, but am curious what that would do. It seems like the best method here will be daily use, and not drying it out but always having cheese or whey inside it.
I’m so glad you posted on this. I’ve dumped two 5 gallon batches in a row this week of lactic cheese, struggling with over powering yeast before the acidity is right to scoop curd. It’s been very frustrating. My thoughts were maybe my environment was being affected by the kefir I have let mature too long. (I didn’t use it to culture, but it’s on the counter) I’ve used milk right from the udder, only adding rennet but not starter. I’m going to play around with your methods here and see if I can find a wooden vessel to use for aging. The plastic bucket just feels all wrong. Salting before hand sounds like an interesting concept.
Thanks Kimberly, if you do salt, I would add a culture as well. I always use something, but have seen many places where nothing is added. But with that approach there is much room for what I consider “error”, Such as coliform or clostridium bacteria, or early yeasting like I mentioned.
There are plenty of lactic goat cheeses all over south/southwest France, where it tends to be warm and dry. They’re typically quite small, and just get a light geo dusting vs the classic penicillium coat of the cooler, damper northwest. In my very Mediterranean (California) climate, I get the same. I like the idea of pre-salting to slow fermentation—I’ll have to experiment with that. Do you still salt the surface upon molding, or just let it dry, come what may re yeasts and molds?
Hi Lisa, if I hope to understand this style, I really need to spend time in various parts of France. I hadn’t heard that north / south distinction before, and it’s usually that light geo dust I seek. I’ve had good ones made in many places as well. I haven’t been surface salting, the article I read listed as an advantage that by not having to surface, yeasts and a rind can establish faster. I think the Rinds go Wild, but they could also be steered by washing with one percent Brine . Or patting, which seems to favor geo over blue.
Reading this has been so helpful. I'm only getting 1L of milk a day from my goats currently, I keep having failures - not sure if its yeast or coliform, it shows up closer to the 24hr mark - full of holes, floating/bloated in the pot. Not sure if maybe the milk needs to be fresh like you mentioned. Just not sure I can make it with only one litre - I use walcoe rennet tablets 1/16th of a tablet for 4L milk makes it hard to get an even smaller dose. I've also been harvesting my kefir at the wrong stage, wow so much learning - going to try it with the salt as well. I'm on the westcoast of BC and it's hot right now here, so maybe i need to change the climate of where it's fermenting. Thank you for the interesting reading and learning.
Freshness of milk is certainly crucial, especially for this style. Are you refrigerating it to save up for a few days?
Yes I get it in the fridge right away. This morning I tried something else, after reading your blog an idea came into my mind - I mixed up the rennet 1/16th of a tablet into 1/4c of water (4tbsps are in 1/4c) I then took my 1L of warm milk added 1tbsp kefir, 7grams of salt and 1tbsp of rennet (put the rest in the fridge to use tomorrow again.) So tomorrow morning I will tell if this works - perhaps I will just make small amounts of cheese? Thank you for your writing as it sparked new ideas in my mind.
I would recommend only holding the milk 24 hours, maybe 48. You can also try culturing the milk before refrigerating it, (for lactics) it will begin souring slowly, but at least you can get you desired microbes in there up front.
So I could add the tablespoon of kefir when I bring the milk in, then perhaps hold it til the next day and then warm it up and add it to the next mornings milk? So many things to learn and explore with. When I kept having issues with using the 4 days or milk - I thought I wasn't "sanitizing" enough - you know how hair can fall in before being strained etc. I'm realizing "sanitizing" is not so necessary when I see how milk has been turned into cheese for eons. They didn't have hydrogen peroxide to spray on everything.
My small cheese is looking very good from yesterday - curd is a bit soft, perhaps I will play with the rennet amount to add. I forgot to wait between culturing, salting and adding the rennet. I don't have a ph meter either. It's just fun to get to play with this all, and really great to not have lifted the lid and seen a bloated cheese curd!
I really hope you write a book - I want to learn more from you! I'm just a bit too far to make it to one of your workshops.
Yeah, add that tablespoon of kefir that I was harvested when It’s peak activity, which means slightly thick, but not fermented to total sourness and separation. The thing that allows many cheese to be fermented in what appears to be highly unsanitary conditions is working with milk straight from the animal.
I love your final thoughts on this. Americans are so accustomed to eating commercialized foods that always taste the same and can be purchased anywhere across this enormous continent. Reclaiming culture, human and cheese, by making food that is specific to PLACE is the correct course of action. Forced nature becomes denatured. We will reclaim health, sovereignty, and food that is delicious and precious as we grow and make from PLACE. I absolutely adore this message of yours, and it echoes also the message of Tara's of slowdownfarmstead fame. Keep up the amazing work! I enjoy all you do!
Sounds like a visit to the Abbey of Regina Laudis (Bethlehem, Connecticut) & chat with microbiologist Sr Noella Marcellino is in order. Or at the very least check out the “Earth” episode of the Netflix documentary series "Cooked". Not sure how familiar you are with her & her wooden tina? Put very simply, using it & the lactic acid bacteria contained within it far outweighs using stainless steel vats to control E.coli pathogens in raw milk!
I’m all about the cheese nun, dying to meet her someday. The Tinas used in Ragusano are so cool, definitely one of the better examples of the use of wood being protected. They have a whole kit of wood implements and storage vessels!
Thanks for that great post Trevor. Does anyone condition their wood fermentation vessels by rubbing them down with salt? I wonder if that would help select for a rind culture you’d prefer or help to inhibit the overzealous yeast. I like your idea of storing the vessel in the cooler aging environment as well. Can’t wait to see what your experiments being you.
I have not heard of using salt in that way, but am curious what that would do. It seems like the best method here will be daily use, and not drying it out but always having cheese or whey inside it.
Such an interesting read -- thanks for sharing! I love peering into the mystery of it all through someone else's eyes. Thanks, T!
I’m so glad you posted on this. I’ve dumped two 5 gallon batches in a row this week of lactic cheese, struggling with over powering yeast before the acidity is right to scoop curd. It’s been very frustrating. My thoughts were maybe my environment was being affected by the kefir I have let mature too long. (I didn’t use it to culture, but it’s on the counter) I’ve used milk right from the udder, only adding rennet but not starter. I’m going to play around with your methods here and see if I can find a wooden vessel to use for aging. The plastic bucket just feels all wrong. Salting before hand sounds like an interesting concept.
Thanks Kimberly, if you do salt, I would add a culture as well. I always use something, but have seen many places where nothing is added. But with that approach there is much room for what I consider “error”, Such as coliform or clostridium bacteria, or early yeasting like I mentioned.
Have you made these with kefir in the past?
I have not used kefir for the lactic cheese but will give it a try. Thank you.
There are plenty of lactic goat cheeses all over south/southwest France, where it tends to be warm and dry. They’re typically quite small, and just get a light geo dusting vs the classic penicillium coat of the cooler, damper northwest. In my very Mediterranean (California) climate, I get the same. I like the idea of pre-salting to slow fermentation—I’ll have to experiment with that. Do you still salt the surface upon molding, or just let it dry, come what may re yeasts and molds?
Hi Lisa, if I hope to understand this style, I really need to spend time in various parts of France. I hadn’t heard that north / south distinction before, and it’s usually that light geo dust I seek. I’ve had good ones made in many places as well. I haven’t been surface salting, the article I read listed as an advantage that by not having to surface, yeasts and a rind can establish faster. I think the Rinds go Wild, but they could also be steered by washing with one percent Brine . Or patting, which seems to favor geo over blue.